Martial Art Ranking?

Guys, how would you know that a person is good in that art, if the art has no ranking system such as belt.





And can someone tell me which martial art have belts, and which doesn't.

Martial Art Ranking?
From what I know and have experienced most martial art systems have moved towards a belt ranking of some sort over the recent 15-20 years. The only ones that I know of that still don't use belts (as belts are not necessary) are the sport related systems such as... Muay Thai, Kickboxing, and MMA. Instead they use weight class and generally base skill off of their performance in their respective class.





You ask their instructors and peers, or watch video of their matches to find out how their skills rank.





Why do you need to know somebody else's skills anyway? Does it really matter?
Reply:Excellent answer from Aarron J. i have nothing to add.Belt ranking is a western concept,does it realy mean anything???
Reply:Martial Arts have been around since long before there were belts and other ranking systems. You know if someone is good if you see them spar and they do well. Some styles that don't have belts are boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, catch wrestling, and Wing Chun. Many foreign instructors who come to America have to create belt systems just to get students to attend. What a shame. Other instructors use belts as a means of making extra money through belt testing fees. Beware of any McDojos.
Reply:I agree with the two previous answers totally as today we have all heard the term MC Dojo!! where belts are given away simply because mommy and daddy are paying fees and expect their kid to be given a grading for every loud Kiaai!


Belts hold up pants! and as any good martial artist will tell you, if you do have a belt ranking system, your real learning only begins at Black belt level
Reply:Fight them! That's the only way to truly asses someone's skill level. I say if they can tag you (hit lightly or almost hit) in an area that would cause severe injury or knockout in three moves or less, their skill level is significantly higher than yours.





Most of the traditional martial arts don't have belt systems or ranking systems. Only designation of teacher and student. If you look at the very traditional styles like many of the KungFu styles, old style Japanese martial arts, and other traditional arts from around the globe the only distinction of rank was teacher and student.


Basically the more traditional the style, the less or a prominent ranking system.





One example is the Japanese martial arts. Originally there were no ranks at all because there were differently ranked samurai learning them. From there they progressed to menkyo certificates, which could take 20 years in some styles for the FIRST one. From there Jigaro Kano introduced the kyu ranking system into Japanese martial arts. Then from there, the belt system was developed.





In a historical sense ranking systems are actually pretty new. Just train hard and forget about rank!
Reply:95% of all MA in the US have belts. One of the main reasons for this is that we Americans have some need to rank each other and to be ranked against others.





The further you get, the more you can see skill without a ranking system. Once you only care about your skill is when you will no longer be held down because of comparing yourself to others.





Question for jkdstreetsmart - where do you do Wah Lum? My Sigung trained at the Wah Lum temple in Florida for many years. In fact, most of our beginner and intermediate forms are Wah Lum forms. pls send me an email
Reply:You are correct there is no ranking system per say except within competition. That basically equates to the fact that they know something of their art and are good at competing. I will be the first one to say that there are many good martial artists out there that do not compete, or are terrible at it but are good instructors and others that are just as eqaully bad.





One of the things that I always stress with all my students is that they pay me for lessons and to educate, develop, and make them the best that I can. It does not matter what I have done in competition as they are not going to have me fighting their battles or defending them per say.





Most people that are good in their art operate at what they call the synergy level. That is they can teach a beginner or an advance student equally well, imparting important aspects of their art to each, analyze any problems that each may have in learning and make adjustments so that each student can better learn the technique or their art. I am sure that you experienced this in high school or college. Some teachers even though they graduated from a lesser college are really good teachers. Others, even though they may have graduated from a better college are horrible at teaching and motivating students. Martial arts instructors are much the same in some ways. A good one operates at the synergy level, produces a good student that can stand on their own skill, ability, and knowledge of their art.
Reply:Many Japanese and Korean arts have a belt ranking system.


Many forms of Kali, Kung Fu, Silate, and a few others have no such system.


"How do you know if someone is good?"


This should actually read


How do I properly underestimate an opponent?





Everyone is good until you prove that they are not.


Good luck
Reply:odds are people seeking out arts that have no ranking system are more concerned with learning to apply technique than wear multicolored peices of cloth around thier waist and smell thier own farts.





truth is that the only art that regulates belts so that you know that they are capable of applying what they have learned at the skill level they are at is bjj. as the popularity of that art grows and time passes I'm sure they will fall prey to the unscrupulous behavior of gym owners and have "hollow belts rank" who hold rank but can't fight thier way out of a paper bag.





since there is no "oversight comitee" martial arts belts are solely in the discretion of the school owner, leaving many black belts who can do nice interpretive dance numbers (aka kata) but can't fight worth a damn.





most japanese and korean dojos and dojangs have belts, bjj has belts muai thai and chinese martial arts gyms may have some form of ranking as well. depends on the gym though.





IMO- with cma however if there is so much emphasis on rank then it is more likely a pajama party than a martial arts school.








you can tell how good people are only by crossing hands, rolling, etc. with them. martial arts is a physical activity. i can brag all I want about how I can run the 40 in 1.5 seconds but until I actually do it you won't know whether I'm full of it or not (ok I am- obviously or I would be a member of the justice league and wearing red and yellow tights).





you generally know how good people in your gym are as you train with them all the time. you know how good you are by measuring yourself against them and people outside who also train.
Reply:Belts don't seem to mean too much, unless it's forms( nice dance numbers) at our school, I'm the slowest for belt tests I try and wait a year or so for each belt, even if I go almost every day, unless the Master tells me I need to test I avoid them, as I hate anything like a test, I like sparring but not much on forms, and like the joint locks etc.Master says he will teach you when you are ready( I think that's what he said, his accent is tough for me to get) but if you try and learn too fast you won't get it. We have black belts that are unreal in power and skill, but most are not so impressive, some I'm pretty sure I can beat in sparring and I'm only and green/ blue but I'm older stronger, but at 52 the conditioning is hard to make up the 20 year difference with a 30 year old 1st Dan, but I like the Sparring and many of them don't much. So that is a big factor.
Reply:I can usually tell by the way they perform and by what they say!





That means more to me than any rank does.





Most Martial Arts styles have either belts or sashes. Kick Boxing , Muay Thai and such use no belts or rank.
Reply:It would depend on their skill and experience.





And depending on the school, there are other ways of showing skill. Like a boxing/kickboxing gym might have championship belts, or certificates and so forth. There's a couple organizations like the Muay Thai Boxing Network that actually issue tests for instructors to be official (But Muay Thai has a ranking system technically.. Not belts though...) too. But you don't always need that: Some can show their skill just by there ability to teach, and their personal martial skill.
Reply:fighting some one does not prove what rank or how good someone is.attacking someone in a real situation does.and like wolf says i judge someone by talking to them and watching them not by what they wear around there waist.


a lot of muay thai(in thailand as well) schools do in fact have a ranking system simular to most martial arts but is in the form of certificates and singlets.in my experience they are very strict and rigid and allow no compensation for anything if you cant pass the grading or test or kru doesn't think you are good enough you dont pass.
Reply:Well, in the west in particular, a grand majority of schools use the Kyu/Dan system with belts or varying colors. A good rule of thumb (at least with Japanese arts) is that if the art ends with 'do', it probably has a Kyu/Dan system but if it ends with 'jutsu', its likely to use the Menkyo system.





Rank is pretty meaningless outside of a given school, but within the school itself, it does have its uses - beginners want to (and need) to know who might be better able to help them and who to listen to. Certainly, Sensei is someone with a clue, but what about your training partners?





On the other hand, I notice a pattern that keeps repeating itself..





A student begins and they are very curious about rank. They would rather train with/ask questions of someone who has a mid level rank than someone who has trained for 20 years but never tested. They ask 'what rank are you' and think your a god when you say Ikkyu. I avoid answering that and instead say that I feel like I know less than when I started - I don't want to screw them up if they start asking me questions and I give them an answers I don't know won't help.





A bit later, the beginners will either keep questioning or they will start trying to teach - offer corrections and such. Given, I try to help my partners with feedback (I still had my balance, I felt my weight go back into my feet, I feel alot of tension in your body) or try to guide someone if they are clearly confused. When people ask me questions, I usually ask them a question back or quote what Sensei has said. However, often, early beginners will correct even their Sempei or other beginners or even visitors they don't know from Adam.





A while after that, these students either quit or they start learning to listen more and talk less. They learn that they are actually helping more to say nothing than they are to try teaching.





We had a couple of college football players training for a few lessons. Sensei never called them up for ukemi and they usually were able to use their mass to their advantage training with intermediate students. However, since we only have white and black belts, they can't tell by looking who knows what. The other students that have been around all know who is at what level so to speak, but they didn't.





Eventually, they train with some pre-black belts - people that wear white belts but just haven't taken their test yet. So they try to help and what not offering corrections and saying no no no. The students said thank you for the feedback and continued training. What they didn't know is that they hadn't really been thrown because they didn't know how to take the fall safely. One student wasn't so polite and let them have it - if they really want to be thrown, ok, fine - *** over tea kettle they both went one after the other... They didn't make assumptions after being thrown by someone who looks like they came out of the tri-lams from revenge of the nerds.





How often is the tri-lam judged without knowing? How often is the football player judged without knowing? How often, dispite the fable telling us not to, do we judge books by their covers?





What I'm getting at is you can't tell by belts or by rank or anything else - you only know if you have seen it with your own eyes. Best assume they know more than you until you know for sure.